Senator LUDLAM-I have some questions about the ABC.

Senator Conroy-Have you ever been on The 7.30 Report, Senator Ludlam?

Senator LUDLAM-My invitation has gone missing as well. I want to congratulate you, first of all, on the iView service that is offered by the ABC. It is superb. I would like you to tell us, if you can, what sort of traffic you get to it-if you have an idea how popular it has become?

Mr Scott-It has grown significantly, Senator. I am not sure if I have the traffic figures now, but we have had significant growth this year. It is a widely appreciated service. We have increased the amount of catch-up viewing on it, we have put some further channels on it and we are promoting it quite widely. It has been an outstanding service. The other thing we have noted is that the traffic on iView is significantly higher with those ISPs who allow iView to be viewed in an unmetered way. That has been beneficial for those ISPs but it has also been beneficial for iView.

Senator LUDLAM-I will ask you about the metering and the unmetering in a moment, but would you be able to provide us with some traffic data on notice?

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-I do not know whether you have these figures to hand, but can you also take on notice what it costs for the ABC to put that content online; whether it is a significant additional cost?

Mr Scott-There are some distribution costs that we have had to absorb and there were some development costs but we can provide further details.

Senator LUDLAM-Is it the case that the material on there is left online for a period of two weeks?

Mr Scott-Yes, it is mainly two weeks. The BBC only keeps theirs up on iPlayer for one week. Often this comes with the rights agreement that you have with the rights holder. Some of the material we hold the rights to but other material we do not hold the rights to. Basically we are arguing around the existence of a free-to-air window, a right that is basically saying, ‘The people who watch it within that two-week window are like those who would watch it that evening it was being shown.' But if you go much beyond that then the feeling is, particularly with some of the independent producers we deal with, that you are moving into different markets. So we are at the outer end compared to, say, what the British public broadcaster is doing, by having it available up there for two weeks.

Senator LUDLAM-Can you tell us in a bit more detail what the argument is for the material that you do hold the rights to. Why shouldn't it be up there in perpetuity once you have broadcast it?

Mr Scott-Partly it is the carriage cost of having all that up there and available, like the archive that is ongoing. If you look at some of the material we have shown in the past that we have rights to, we have it more widely available now for audiences than we ever have before, through its availability on iView. Some of that will end up on DVD. Some of that will end up for sale in ABC shops. Take SeaChange for example. Our audiences understood that they could have watched SeaChange on air and SeaChange when we repeated it, but if you wanted to go and watch SeaChange tonight then you could purchase those DVDs, which gives you a different kind of audience experience. We continue to look at the ongoing availability. There is a lot of material that we have created around news and current affairs, archival material that is available through other ABC websites-the Four Corners website and other things-but it goes well beyond the two weeks. But a lot of the content up on iView is entertainment, drama and comedy, and a lot of that material is developed with a more narrow rights window.

Senator LUDLAM-I would have thought that the current affairs material, for example, would benefit from being in that.

Mr Scott-I think that is true, but we are finding at the moment-and I do not want to limit where the development of iView goes-that if you want to watch Four Corners episodes from earlier in the year you can find those on the Four Corners website rather than through the iView distribution mechanism.

Senator LUDLAM-Are you able to foreshadow what your intentions are for that service in the next little while?

Mr Scott-I would like, finally, for people to be able to experience it not just on the computer but on the television set. That would be ideal. With the technology-and certainly with the government's fast broadband initiative-there would be a capacity to be able to deliver that. I think our audiences, too, would like, to be able to sit on the couch and watch not just what is on air tonight but the programming that was on offer over the previous two weeks. That is an ambition for it. There are different ways you could go about delivering that, and that is what we are looking at at the moment.

Senator LUDLAM-Coming back to the question of metering-and I do not know whether this is an oversimplification-my understanding is that the ABC moved to using a content distribution platform called Akamai.

Mr Scott-We have used Akamai, yes.

Senator LUDLAM-The way that it has been explained to me is that for technical reasons more than anything else that makes it difficult, if not impossible, for most ISPs to offer that content unmetered. Is that your understanding?

Mr Scott-No. We think there are ways. Akamai is one of the biggest content distribution systems in the world.

Senator Conroy-Other organisations have agreements with them.

Senator LUDLAM-It is possible.

Mr Scott-Lots of organisations use Akamai. Apple uses Akamai to distribute their iTunes, and others. This has been something that we have continued to review internally to manage the cost of demand of delivering this service. But, as the minister rightly points out, we do have other ISPs that are able to deliver iView unmetered. We do not think there are inhibitors on this. We are in discussions with other ISPs around delivering iView unmetered as well.

Senator LUDLAM-My understanding, just to be clear, is that the inhibitor was perhaps an unintentional side effect of moving to that service, whereby unmetering is based on source IP addresses.

Mr Scott-We believe we are going to work around that.

Senator LUDLAM-What do you think is your time frame for having fixed this?

Mr Scott-We are in discussions with other ISPs at the moment. The question, finally, I do not think is a technological one. The question is whether in fact those ISPs decide they want to show the iView content unmetered. So really it is a question for them, not for us. We are providing every encouragement, and if there are any technological inhibitors they have identified we are working with them to overcome them. But I do not think that is where the debate is at the moment.

Senator LUDLAM-So you are not aware that those concerns have been raised?

Mr Scott-Some concerns have been raised, but, as the minister points out, other ISPs have been able to work around them, and we think workarounds are possible.

Senator Conroy-I am assuming you are on iiNet.

Senator LUDLAM-I have forgotten. I just use the parliamentary service, which unfortunately will not stream iView in here, which is a great shame-on wireless, anyway.

Mr Scott-That is a tragedy, not a shame!

Senator LUDLAM-I am aware that iiNet, which is the example that I picked out, is unmetered because of some of the technology that they have deployed which is not available to other ISPs. You have acknowledged that there are some technical issues.

Mr Scott-Some issues have been raised, but we do not believe them to be absolute inhibitors to the provision of that service. We would welcome discussions with ISPs to deliver iView unmetered. The reality is that the Australian public has already paid for this content. They do not actually have to pay extra to listen to it on radio or watch it on television, and we do not think that they should have to pay extra to watch it on the internet.

Senator LUDLAM-I appreciate that. I would like to move to ABC Radio and black spots in particular. I had a week in the north-west Pilbara region last week and visited at a couple of Aboriginal communities-in particular, one at Jigalong, which is about 100 kilometres east of Newman-that cannot get ABC Radio. They desperately want to get it. Senator Abetz touched on this before in the context of Tasmania, but what is the strategy for the three or four per cent of the Australian land mass that cannot catch ABC Radio?

Mr Scott-Land mass or population-because more than 99 per cent of Australians live in a place where they can receive ABC local radio. We have the data of our reach well and truly spelt out in our annual report. We are looking at whether there are direct-to-home provisions that help with the others. We do our best to extend the reach. Of course, the geography is very difficult in the Northern Territory and the far reaches of Western Australia. The northern parts of Western Australia have proved challenging for us. In the Northern Territory we have used high-frequency distribution and shortwave distribution and that has been challenging in the environment. We continue to talk with Broadcast Australia about that. Our reach is into 99 per cent of the country and to get to the final per cent is a significant challenge.

Mr Pendleton-It becomes more cost-effective to have terrestrial transmission, and it is always available to the very small remote area locations to take the satellite feed of some of the national radio program services.

Senator LUDLAM-Is that quite a bit of a more expensive for them to receive? The example that I want to cite to you is from Dr Randy's Spargo, who was interviewed recently on Radio National but then could not actually listen to the broadcast. He is a doctor out at Jigalong. What are the options for that community? Do they need to purchase satellite receiving equipment?

Mr Pendleton-Yes, unfortunately. A number of councils have invested in retransmitters for their communities, where they believe there is enough demand for it. The only other alternative is to take the satellite feed off the direct-to-home.

Mr Scott-I think fast broadband will also give another distribution opportunity on this. If the country is linked up with fast broadband, we are streaming live our national radio networks, our digital radio networks and local radio stations-not all local radio stations are streaming now but certainly the capital cities are. We hope fast broadband will be an answer to some of the challenges of distribution to isolated areas.

Senator LUDLAM-That is where I was going to go next. I am quite looking forward to the asking some of the coming witnesses about this. The Jigalong community is getting a dial-up connection at the moment. They can barely get email. Without too much crystal ball gazing, could you tell us, out of terrestrial broadcast, satellite, digital radio transmissions or the National Broadband Network, what is going to reach a community like that in remote Western Australia first?

Mr Scott-First? I think those are probably better questions for later in the day. All we know is that we have targets that we are trying to reach through digital television. We have our current reach through analog radio. Digital radio will be further away, of course. The National Broadband Network is an alternative distribution mechanism for us for all our content-television, radio and the online content that we are creating. There are satellite provisions as well, if that is what the communities want to embrace.

Senator Conroy-Do you want to talk about regional digital TV now or do you want to wait until a bit later on?

Senator LUDLAM-I was going to wait until broadcasting comes up-that is fine.

Senator Conroy-No worries.

Senator LUDLAM-What is your understanding-and I will put this to Mr Quigley when he is here- about whether the National Broadband Network is likely to be rolled in from the fringes of the network rather than outwards from metropolitan areas?

Senator Conroy-That is a question for Mr Quigley, I would have thought.

Senator LUDLAM-I was just about to ask the ABC part of the question. What is your understanding of that rollout strategy? Are you tailoring or gearing some of your strategies around that?

Mr Scott-I can only speak to that question broadly. We provide a suite of services that we want Australians to be able to experience no matter where they live. We have had experiences in the past, which the minister has spoken about and which I have spoken about, where slow broadband in the bush has been a disadvantage to us. We had to pull back a bit the capacity of our Unearthed music site because of the problems people had with dial-up in regional areas. So of course we are keen to get to a result where everybody has fast broadband. We absolutely appreciate that in regional areas there are some specific problems that need to be addressed for them to catch up with even what is available in the cities. As to the final timetabling and priorities for the rollout of the network, those will be questions for them, not us.

Senator Conroy-It is fair to say, though, that the ABC has rolled out a range of programs across the country over many years but has not started them in the same place at the same time?

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator Conroy-If you look at the rollout pattern of the whole range of programs, the ABC has had an economically rational approach while trying to apply a community approach to the whole rollout.

Mr Scott-Yes. As the rollout of news radio to smaller communities continues, it happens over time.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay. I am not sure what I will take back to Jigalong as to when they might be getting ABC Radio out there, though. That still seems-

Senator Conroy-Do you mean digital radio?

Senator LUDLAM-Any kind of radio. They do not get ABC out there at all. We can come back to digital radio later. I would like to close with a couple of questions about arts programming on ABC TV. It appears, from an outsider's point of view, that arts coverage on ABC radio and TV has declined over the last 10 years or so, in quantity and probably in depth as well. Can you tell us what your intentions are for the flagship Sunday Arts program? Is there an intention to reduce that on TV or throw it over-

Mr Scott-I have no advice on that. I will start with your point, Senator. Next week the ABC is hosting a conference with leading partners in the arts community on arts coverage at the ABC. It is a responsibility we take very, very seriously. We have a regular slot in prime time on Tuesday night for arts and we have Sunday afternoon. We have run increased arts programming on ABC2 and a range of arts programming on Radio National. Of course, we are covering the arts all the time across all our platforms, including an online presence with websites like Pool, which we are doing in partnership. That is focused on the visual arts. So there is a lot of activity. We have significant partnerships with Australia Council for the Arts that is allowing us to take advantage of digital technology to bring live cultural events into the homes of people around the country, such as opera, ballet and live theatre events. There is a lot happening. We are in close consultation with the arts community and, as I said, next week we have another major planning session underway. We take our responsibilities seriously and we are very committed to it.

Senator LUDLAM-Is it a fair conjecture to say that arts-on ABC1, at least-is being reduced, even if coverage might be expanding online or elsewhere?

Mr Scott-No, I would not have thought so. I am a bit surprised to hear that, Senator. I think there is extensive arts coverage across a range of programs, including arts programming. The main place we have run arts programming for a number of years has been Tuesday night at 10 o'clock, and that has continued. If you take a broader definition of the arts, there are things like First Tuesday Book Club. Our commitment to reading and literature has been very strong across radio and television. So, no, I would not have put the view that you put on it, Senator, but I hear your comments. I can tell you I am pleased we have got the conference coming up next week which will address precisely our arts coverage issues.

Senator LUDLAM-Is there a specialised or dedicated arts unit at the ABC?

Mr Scott-There is an executive who is responsible for arts coverage and other areas. We do not have somebody responsible for the arts across all our platforms. The responsibility is carried out in different divisions.

Senator LUDLAM-So you do have a specialised religion unit, for example, which we have spoken of before, but not an arts unit in the same way?

Mr Scott-Religion and science, yes, but we do not have an arts unit that is responsible for the delivery of that content. But I would say to you, Senator, that we have an entire radio network that is devoted to classical music and a lot of Radio National is responsible for arts coverage, so it is pretty broad and scattered across all divisions, I suppose.

Senator LUDLAM-Just going a little more broadly, how do you at the ABC determine if you want particular television arts programs-sticking with TV at the moment-to be produced in-house or outsourced? What are your criteria for deciding that?

Mr Scott-They are decisions that are made by our television executive. Some of our expertise around television production, some of the way we commission, is whether in fact we think there are partners out there who bring particular expertise to bear, people that we want to work with, and also whether they bring funding or there is an ability to attract other kinds of funding. And it is not just the funding that the independent producer can bring. Sometimes if you are doing a documentary you can do it with an independent producer and that can trigger other forms of government funding is well, from Screen Australia or other state entities, that the ABC will not get if it is just internal production. So you have to weigh all these things up. If you look at it, there is a lot of arts programming now that we do internally, but there have been significant arts related documentaries that we have either done in partnership with the independent production sector or that we have
purchased. So they calibrate that as they work it through.

Senator LUDLAM-Okay, thank you. Can you tell us whether announcements or promos that a broadcast on ABC TV are broadcast at higher volumes than the programming?

Senator Conroy-This is the compression issue.

Mr Scott-Not that I am aware of, Senator Ludlam.

Senator LUDLAM-I know on other channels there has been discussion about this.

Mr Scott-Yes, there has.

Senator Conroy-This is a legitimate issue raised right across the spectrum. I did see a very good explanation once about what caused the perception that they were broadcasting at a higher frequency. I am not a technician-and after I have said this you might want to ask the ABC whether they do this or not-but my understanding is that it never breaches the individual sound limit but, because they compress it in a way that puts the entire sound at the highest pitch, it sounds like it is at the higher limit but it does not actually go outside it. Now, they may have changed and are being cheeky and are breaching the upper sound limit, but my understanding is that the reason that the ads sound like they are at a higher level is because they are continually at the highest level.

Senator LUDLAM-It is because they kind of are.

Senator Conroy-No, there is a limit on where they are allowed to go through. They do not go through the limit, they just compress it so it is all at the one higher pitch, if I can use that strictly non-technical term. So you might want to ask whether or not they are at their highest pitch.

Mr Scott-I can take that notice. We are certainly not cranking up the volume.

Senator LUDLAM-I am aware of the technique that Senator Conroy is talking about, although I do not have the technical language to describe it either, but I would be very interested to know.

Mr Scott-We can give you some advice on that.

Senator LUDLAM-That would be appreciated.

Senator Conroy-Michael Danby asked these questions a while ago.

Senator LUDLAM-Of the ABC?

Senator Conroy-Not of the ABC; of the industry in general. I do not know which show it was but it was demonstrated why it sounded like they were breaching, going too high and louder. Like you, I do not have the technical jargon to express it quite accurately.

Senator LUDLAM-I will chase those, but if we can get some feedback from the ABC that would be appreciated.

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-I asked the question in the context of TV, but maybe you could chase that up for us about radio as well.

Mr Scott-Yes.

Senator LUDLAM-Thank you.